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	<title>Comments on: K9 Magazine: Probably The Single Most Disgusting Thing I&#8217;ve Ever Seen</title>
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	<link>http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/2980/k9-magazine-probably-the-single-most-disgusting-thing-ive-ever-seen/</link>
	<description>the lifestyle magazine for dog lovers</description>
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		<title>By: S Brook</title>
		<link>http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/2980/k9-magazine-probably-the-single-most-disgusting-thing-ive-ever-seen/#comment-46475</link>
		<dc:creator>S Brook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dogmagazine.net/?p=2980#comment-46475</guid>
		<description>Firstly let me thank you for your response to my comment and would agree with many points you make.  I find the arrogance and egoism that many trainers adopt  - Millan included but he&#039;s certainly not the only one - offputting and stifles healthy and productive criticism and debate on the methods we use to train our dogs. 

The AVSAB (American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour) (as I meant in my original post, apologies), is probably self-regulated, as indeed is the UK APBC (who to my knowledge do not have an official position statement on Millan&#039;s methods).  Yes, they do represent the interests of their members, but the vast majority of people working in this field do it for genuine reasons of compassion and caring for the animal, not ulterior motives.  And the damage that can occur to dogs through the application, or misapplication if you prefer, of some of these methods, is the only motivation that most behaviourists have to voice their concern over their promotion.  Moreover, the APBC will soon be the only organisation in which to be a full member one must have reached CCAB (Certified Clinical Animal Behaviour) accreditation standards.  This independent accreditation is given by the Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour, who are working closely with the Companion Animal Welfare Council, who advise the government.  This accrediation combines qualifications with experience, and is the highest standard available in the UK.  Some people do not place any importance on qualifications, but then again, maybe would not go to an unqualified human psychologist!

Millan has without doubt had success (particularly with his human clients and fans!).  In many senses, he has benefitted the dog population of the US, in promoting awareness of training and exercise needs.  Unfortunately his outdated views on dominance and pack structure and his use of physical punishment and restraint are not only misguided; they are potentially extremely dangerous.  It&#039;s not just about teaching the dog; its about training the owner, and I don&#039;t agree with Anderson that these methods can be done appropriately by the majority of people.  Fear and anxiety is prevalent in a large proportion of aggression cases, and in these cases using punishment is potentially dangerous.

One final point, on the arrogance or otherwise of considering one trainer right and another one wrong.   There is a tendancy for trainers and behaviourists to take strong views on particular issues, but in this we lose sight of the fact that we are all dog lovers and ultimately all want the same thing; happy, healthy, well-behaved dogs.  There should be more reasoned dialogue between us, as there are plenty of non-dog lovers out there who make life difficult enough as it is!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Firstly let me thank you for your response to my comment and would agree with many points you make.  I find the arrogance and egoism that many trainers adopt  &#8211; Millan included but he&#8217;s certainly not the only one &#8211; offputting and stifles healthy and productive criticism and debate on the methods we use to train our dogs. </p>
<p>The AVSAB (American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour) (as I meant in my original post, apologies), is probably self-regulated, as indeed is the UK APBC (who to my knowledge do not have an official position statement on Millan&#8217;s methods).  Yes, they do represent the interests of their members, but the vast majority of people working in this field do it for genuine reasons of compassion and caring for the animal, not ulterior motives.  And the damage that can occur to dogs through the application, or misapplication if you prefer, of some of these methods, is the only motivation that most behaviourists have to voice their concern over their promotion.  Moreover, the APBC will soon be the only organisation in which to be a full member one must have reached CCAB (Certified Clinical Animal Behaviour) accreditation standards.  This independent accreditation is given by the Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour, who are working closely with the Companion Animal Welfare Council, who advise the government.  This accrediation combines qualifications with experience, and is the highest standard available in the UK.  Some people do not place any importance on qualifications, but then again, maybe would not go to an unqualified human psychologist!</p>
<p>Millan has without doubt had success (particularly with his human clients and fans!).  In many senses, he has benefitted the dog population of the US, in promoting awareness of training and exercise needs.  Unfortunately his outdated views on dominance and pack structure and his use of physical punishment and restraint are not only misguided; they are potentially extremely dangerous.  It&#8217;s not just about teaching the dog; its about training the owner, and I don&#8217;t agree with Anderson that these methods can be done appropriately by the majority of people.  Fear and anxiety is prevalent in a large proportion of aggression cases, and in these cases using punishment is potentially dangerous.</p>
<p>One final point, on the arrogance or otherwise of considering one trainer right and another one wrong.   There is a tendancy for trainers and behaviourists to take strong views on particular issues, but in this we lose sight of the fact that we are all dog lovers and ultimately all want the same thing; happy, healthy, well-behaved dogs.  There should be more reasoned dialogue between us, as there are plenty of non-dog lovers out there who make life difficult enough as it is!</p>
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		<title>By: CJ Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/2980/k9-magazine-probably-the-single-most-disgusting-thing-ive-ever-seen/#comment-46038</link>
		<dc:creator>CJ Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dogmagazine.net/?p=2980#comment-46038</guid>
		<description>Mr O&#039;Meara,  thank you so much for one of the most articular posts I have read in a while! about htose with vested interest taking unilateral postions on techniques and solutions which do not come from their venue (and which they have no direct, limited or inaccurate experience of  him at all.)

You and I may be on opposite sides of the Cesar Millan question but he would be the first one to stand up to say &quot;All ways are good, that do not harm the dog&quot;  and is an absolute advocate of using the softest most postive techniques that wil work for teaching that particular dog appropiate behavior and obedience skills.

I am one of the ones who took the time to really study his techniques, most of which can be done safely, effectively and appropiate by people who are not a part of the canine community and because of that have been able help  rehab and rehome around 40 last chance dogs who were on the list to be euthanized, (some pulled literally as the next in line) when no one else was able or willing to step up.  I also was able to be present during the filming of one his shows to see that he is indeed the real deal, no retakes, mistakes get shown to educate others about consequences of ignorance and over estimating knowledge or skills.

I also personally own an over 3,000 yahoo member email list (with another over 15,000 who have come in solve their problems and moved on from that high volume list)  of people who  help each other correctly understand and apply Cesar&#039;s way to their unique conditions and situations.  

As a college teacher for health and safety issues, biological hazards are something I work to stay on top of (not just for humans but canines as well).  I learned that many times people will do for their pets what they would not do just for themselves.  Thank you for educating and sounding the alarm about this dangerous parasite.  I will be adirecting many people to your information!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr O&#8217;Meara,  thank you so much for one of the most articular posts I have read in a while! about htose with vested interest taking unilateral postions on techniques and solutions which do not come from their venue (and which they have no direct, limited or inaccurate experience of  him at all.)</p>
<p>You and I may be on opposite sides of the Cesar Millan question but he would be the first one to stand up to say &#8220;All ways are good, that do not harm the dog&#8221;  and is an absolute advocate of using the softest most postive techniques that wil work for teaching that particular dog appropiate behavior and obedience skills.</p>
<p>I am one of the ones who took the time to really study his techniques, most of which can be done safely, effectively and appropiate by people who are not a part of the canine community and because of that have been able help  rehab and rehome around 40 last chance dogs who were on the list to be euthanized, (some pulled literally as the next in line) when no one else was able or willing to step up.  I also was able to be present during the filming of one his shows to see that he is indeed the real deal, no retakes, mistakes get shown to educate others about consequences of ignorance and over estimating knowledge or skills.</p>
<p>I also personally own an over 3,000 yahoo member email list (with another over 15,000 who have come in solve their problems and moved on from that high volume list)  of people who  help each other correctly understand and apply Cesar&#8217;s way to their unique conditions and situations.  </p>
<p>As a college teacher for health and safety issues, biological hazards are something I work to stay on top of (not just for humans but canines as well).  I learned that many times people will do for their pets what they would not do just for themselves.  Thank you for educating and sounding the alarm about this dangerous parasite.  I will be adirecting many people to your information!</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan O'Meara</title>
		<link>http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/2980/k9-magazine-probably-the-single-most-disgusting-thing-ive-ever-seen/#comment-45986</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan O'Meara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dogmagazine.net/?p=2980#comment-45986</guid>
		<description>we appreciate Cesar Millan divides opinion. However, it is arrogant to assume that just because a body like APBC have a view that this is a view somehow more important of valid than the millions (and there are millions) of people who disagree. It is equally noted that whilst chastising us for not mentioning this (we have, as it happens - one of our most viewed articles is an item about HSUS criticism of Millan) whilst not mentioning how many owners have giving Millan glowing endorsements. 

Many behaviourists and professionals will criticise and object to the methods of many others, I know. I&#039;ve seen it first hand as a former professional dog trainer. And when someone makes it big on TV, that simply gives more of these folks an opportunity to criticise and chastise. I find the whole thing rather arrogant myself. I - personally/professionally - share very little of Millan&#039;s dog training philosophy on the subject of dominance. I think it&#039;s outdated and disproven. But I&#039;d never be arrogant enough to insist that I&#039;m right and he&#039;s wrong. Never. Many dog trainers and behaviourists, when it comes to the crunch, are arrogant and they have taken a view that their way is THE way. I can confidently state they are wrong. No &#039;way&#039; is THE &#039;way&#039;. There are 1,0001 ways to achieve the same positive outcomes. And when it comes to this particular dog trainer, he has an awful lot of people, real people, real dog owners, who are prepared to step up and put on the record how much he and his particular brand of dog training have helped them to have a better dog.

As for the APBC, they and many other organisations like them are - ultimately - self appointed and they represent a body of small business operators (that is what professional means, you get paid for it) and so they will always represent the interests of their own members, often before actually listening to those people who have glowing endorsement and testimony for the likes of Cesar Millan and other high profile dog trainers.

Questioning the professionalism of a dog trainer is something I support, totally. Shoddy professionals should be outed and named and shamed. But questioning the particular methods and techniques of a trainer without first acknowledging a long record of success and a string of satisified clients, that smacks of alterior motive to my mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>we appreciate Cesar Millan divides opinion. However, it is arrogant to assume that just because a body like APBC have a view that this is a view somehow more important of valid than the millions (and there are millions) of people who disagree. It is equally noted that whilst chastising us for not mentioning this (we have, as it happens &#8211; one of our most viewed articles is an item about HSUS criticism of Millan) whilst not mentioning how many owners have giving Millan glowing endorsements. </p>
<p>Many behaviourists and professionals will criticise and object to the methods of many others, I know. I&#8217;ve seen it first hand as a former professional dog trainer. And when someone makes it big on TV, that simply gives more of these folks an opportunity to criticise and chastise. I find the whole thing rather arrogant myself. I &#8211; personally/professionally &#8211; share very little of Millan&#8217;s dog training philosophy on the subject of dominance. I think it&#8217;s outdated and disproven. But I&#8217;d never be arrogant enough to insist that I&#8217;m right and he&#8217;s wrong. Never. Many dog trainers and behaviourists, when it comes to the crunch, are arrogant and they have taken a view that their way is THE way. I can confidently state they are wrong. No &#8216;way&#8217; is THE &#8216;way&#8217;. There are 1,0001 ways to achieve the same positive outcomes. And when it comes to this particular dog trainer, he has an awful lot of people, real people, real dog owners, who are prepared to step up and put on the record how much he and his particular brand of dog training have helped them to have a better dog.</p>
<p>As for the APBC, they and many other organisations like them are &#8211; ultimately &#8211; self appointed and they represent a body of small business operators (that is what professional means, you get paid for it) and so they will always represent the interests of their own members, often before actually listening to those people who have glowing endorsement and testimony for the likes of Cesar Millan and other high profile dog trainers.</p>
<p>Questioning the professionalism of a dog trainer is something I support, totally. Shoddy professionals should be outed and named and shamed. But questioning the particular methods and techniques of a trainer without first acknowledging a long record of success and a string of satisified clients, that smacks of alterior motive to my mind.</p>
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		<title>By: S Brook</title>
		<link>http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/2980/k9-magazine-probably-the-single-most-disgusting-thing-ive-ever-seen/#comment-45950</link>
		<dc:creator>S Brook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dogmagazine.net/?p=2980#comment-45950</guid>
		<description>I was hoping you might be referring to Cesar Millan.  I was surprised and disappointed by your decision to feature him in your latest edition without mention of the fact that the Association for Pet Behavior Councellors (US) and many leading individuals in canine behaviour have spoken out strongly against many of his methods, a view shared by many professional trainers and behaviourists in this country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was hoping you might be referring to Cesar Millan.  I was surprised and disappointed by your decision to feature him in your latest edition without mention of the fact that the Association for Pet Behavior Councellors (US) and many leading individuals in canine behaviour have spoken out strongly against many of his methods, a view shared by many professional trainers and behaviourists in this country.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda-EDDR</title>
		<link>http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/2980/k9-magazine-probably-the-single-most-disgusting-thing-ive-ever-seen/#comment-45628</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda-EDDR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dogmagazine.net/?p=2980#comment-45628</guid>
		<description>One of our dogs had a serious lungowrm infection last year and nearly died from it. She was play fighting with another dog and received a scratch to her paw, problem was it wouldn&#039;t stop bleeding. We went to the vets and had it looked at and it healed slowly, few weeks later, she had a tiny cut to her lip when playing outside, went to bed, that morning her bed was absolutely soaked in blood, rushed back to vets, they stopped bleeding, took blood sample, i went home and googled like mad, went back to vets and asked for a lungworm test (from faeces) to rule it out. Test came back positive.
That picture is just horrific now i can see what nearly killed this dog, she is still on treatment now and i&#039;ve been on slug patrol for the past year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of our dogs had a serious lungowrm infection last year and nearly died from it. She was play fighting with another dog and received a scratch to her paw, problem was it wouldn&#8217;t stop bleeding. We went to the vets and had it looked at and it healed slowly, few weeks later, she had a tiny cut to her lip when playing outside, went to bed, that morning her bed was absolutely soaked in blood, rushed back to vets, they stopped bleeding, took blood sample, i went home and googled like mad, went back to vets and asked for a lungworm test (from faeces) to rule it out. Test came back positive.<br />
That picture is just horrific now i can see what nearly killed this dog, she is still on treatment now and i&#8217;ve been on slug patrol for the past year.</p>
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