Comments on: Regulation of Electronic Collars – Does Australia Have The Right Approach?

By: Lyn

Lyn — Fri, 03 Dec 2010 22:20:55 +0000

I have just read these comments with great interest. I purchased one of these “shock” collars after having major problems and many complaints with my dog barking at he slightest sound outside. My dog is extremely well behaved with regards to any other behavior commands and responds well to the demands I make of him. However, the barking has not stopped no matter how hard I have tried with various methods being applied.
I followed the instructions to the letter and was helped by a profesional dog trainer that has helped me with other issues I have had.
What a horrific experience! My dog was in so much pain that he collapsed. Now, three weeks later he has lost all his confidence and spends most of his
day cowering in any small space he can find. I constantly re-assure him and have devoted my time to getting him back to how he was before this
experience. And you have the nerve to say they aren’t cruel.
Have you ever tried the Tens Machine – the pain relief nerve stimulus you refer to in your comment. I suffer from agonising and debilitating pain on a daily basis and actually use a tens for relief. However, if the machine is set too high or too constant it is a very painful experience. I tried out the shock collar on myself after what happened to my dog and found the shock to be as strong as the full power of the tens. I tried two different types to test out this theory.
This type of collar is being used on animals half the size of a human and whose pain tolerence cannot be measured.
There should be an outright ban on all these type of cruel training aids. Unfortunatly, after doing a lot of research into the product and believing that it was safe to use, I learnt the hard way with my poor dog having to suffer so much in the process.

By: Bob

Bob — Tue, 25 May 2010 09:23:06 +0000

It’s clear that there are people out there who use shock collars responsibly and that there are a few circumstances where they are an effective (and perhaps the most practical) option. However it’s also clear that these things are widely available to anyone and the purchaser does not require to have any training qualification for its use or indeed have any understanding of the principals of dog training as a whole in order to own and use them. The result is that large numbers of people have bought these devices and an unknown proportion of them have used them inappropriately essentially because they don’t know what they are doing, this has eventually come to the attention of the legislators who after looking at it have decided that the benefits of an outright ban outweigh the cost on the smaller number of instances where these collars are actually of justified use.

A better option might have been to allow licenced use of these devices, with licence requirements such as use in restricted circumstances, appropriate training qualification for the user and the possibility of inspection. One assumes that this was not persued because for starters it just introduces even more bureaocracy which has an associated cost and also because the true number of people affected may be relatively small. It’s always a shame when responsible people suffer because of the faults of others (pistol shooters being a notable example), but given the vast majority of the public have no interest in such devices, and indeed probably look on them unfavourably, it’s no wonder the outright ban option was taken. It would be interesting to know if there exists any exemptions under the legislation.

By: kam

kam — Mon, 10 May 2010 18:33:56 +0000

I have an 11 month old GSP. She’s my first GSP but my 5th dog. I’ve had a Labrador, a retriever, a lurcher and a jack russell over the many years. I am no expert but I have trained them all myself and had compliments on how well behaved they all were. I have NEVER had an issue with recall until now. My GSP has worked impecably through the last 7 months of training and recalls like a saint when the very long check line is attached no matter what the distraction. Take her off the check line and she is a completely different dog. Her hunting instinct is so strong that when she catches sight of something my voice and the dog whistle go completely unheard (unheard NOT ignored) and she’s off like a shot. I know if I could reach and and touch her the shock of my touch would distract her and she would recall. Obviously my arms aren’t a mile long so I can’t reach out and touch her so after 7 months of recall training and seeking alot of advice from other GSP owners I am buying the one thing that can reach out and touch her when she’s running at 50 mph away from me after a pheasant…..an e collar. I’ve never been against them, i’ve just not had to give them much thought until now.

I ride horses and my dogs have always ran with me whilst i’m riding. My GSP has not had this pleasure yet as I am worried she will run into a road (I have to cross a few) or take off after something when i’m not in a position to go after her. I am hoping that an e collar is the answer.

So, if I can give my dog the pleasure of running with me whilst I ride, knowing that I have the contol to stop her before she runs across a road after something I am all for it. What would you rather me do? Keep her on a lead 24/7? That’s no life for a GSP!

We put electric fences up to keep horses safely in their fields so whats wrong with using the same principal for dogs.

Kam

By: Kate Johansson

Kate Johansson — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 02:17:03 +0000

Right on Simon! What a beautifully written commentary. Here is a copy of a blog posting I recently made about this subject.

For help learning the proper use of an electronic dog training collar visit http://www.fastpupdogtraining.com or Contact Tacoma dog trainer Kate Johansson at (253) 569-0411

Words are so powerful. And I can think of few words dripping with more negative hysterical emotion than the erroneous and wrongly descriptive phrase “Shock Collar.” Because of the moniker given to these devices in the 1960s (When they were crude and unreliable–nothing like the smooth exact instruments they are now) they remain controversial today.

Electronic collars use the same technology as a muscle stimulator one might use for (human) physical therapy. The technology is also used for (human) pain management. In fact, it is used in medicine and dentistry routinely. Ever see the TV commercials for belts that will help you obtain the coveted six-pack of abdominals? Same technology. On the low levels we use for training dogs, the stimulation feels like a little flick, similar to static you would get taking clothes out of a dryer. On somewhat higher levels, the stimulation feels like a tingle, similar to your arm or leg starting to fall asleep.

When we are asked as humans to use this technology on ourselves for whatever reason, we are never introduced to it as a “shock” device. We would never allow anyone to shock us. The word “shock” inspires fear. So a person needing to use the technology is introduced to it in a positive, intelligent way.

Electronic dog collars are used not only for high levels of training in dogs, but also for pet containment. With a containment system, the dogs (and cats) are carefully trained using negative reinforcement not to pass certain areas in the yard or house. This allows the pets to have the freedom to roam in the yard, yet keeps them safe from wandering into traffic or chasing a neighboring farm’s livestock.

There are a number of different ways of using the electronic collars, also known as remote training collars. At Fast Pup Dog Training we teach people how to use the stimulation of the collar to gently associate the tickle or tingle of the stimulation with a command such as “come,” “sit,” “stay.” Before we ever start training a dog with the collar, we have everyone in the family, including small children, experience what the stimulation feels like so that everyone understands and knows we are not hurting the dog. We use the stimulation on the lowest level to which the dog will respond. It is never about punishment.

We make sure the clients have a good understanding of how to use the equipment and how to stay positive and calm at all times. We never even let a client raise their voice and we teach them that they no longer need to pull on the leash. Usually during the very first session, we drop the leash altogether so that the client learns to use their body language and great attitude and positive tone of voice to facilitate learning in the dog. With most dogs we will be able to take the dog on an off leash walk after just three sessions.

Last week the principality of Wales in the United Kingdom banned the use of electronic dog collars. Anyone caught using an electronic dog collar will be subject to a fine of £20,000 or six months in prison. As I read the reports and watched the videos from the BBC website, I was amazed (shocked-pardon the pun) at the leaning of the reporters towards support of this ban. And there on the video were all the usual “morally superior” people who were so vindicated by the ban talking about how in today’s world there is no need for any type of dog training that does not use “positive only” methods.

Duncan McNair, of the Electronic Collar Manufacturers Association, estimated that there were at least half a million electronic collars in Wales.

What a shame for the many dog owners who train with the collars. And what a shame for the many dogs who will now need to be imprisoned and kept always on a leash for their safety and the safety of neighbor’s livestock. What a shame for the dogs who will be turned over to shelters and will be put to death for behaviors that can’t be brought under control with the use of cookies.

And all because of fear and hysteria caused by the use of the word “shock.” We need to be careful what words we use.

By: David

David — Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:09:20 +0000

Its not a question of being proved right or wrong, of course electric dog collars work, how could they not? The point is why do you need to startle or inflict pain and fear in an animal for your own gain?

By: becky

becky — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:51:38 +0000

HERE HERE!!!! finally some people that talk sense! i am yet ANOTHER person whose dog’s life has been saved due to the e collar, i have a english springer spaniel and she would go deaf and chase birds, horses, sheep etc. she ran across roads and had caught and killed birds on a couple of occasions, after trying EVERY positive approach we were at our whits end. we battled with the idea of getting an e collar and did eventually. it is the BEST thing we have ever done!!!! i cannot stress how much of a difference this has made to me and my family. she is a fabulous much loved pet who wore the e collar for maybe 2 months max. now she is completely under control and has not worn the e collar for over a year, as she has no need to anymore!

By: Edmond

Edmond — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:15:48 +0000

Hi, I totally agree with Simon’s post.
I was once a very ‘positive positive’ dog trainer. Although I used corrections before in training, I had never used an e-collar.
The dog I used it for was a small 10kg mixed breed, who is unsociable/afraid of strange people and to most dogs. I too, use this as a recall. Now, in ANY and I mean ANY situation I can recall her from a mile away. Whether she’s chasing a rabbit, pestered by another dog, I can call her out of any situation. And, the benefit of it? She can run freely run in the woods and in the park. She isn’t a competition dog, just a normal little pet dog.

I very rarely use the electric button, once a month (?), and it gives me the freedom, peace of mind to let my dog run off leash.

I’d say, if you haven’t used it (properly) before, I don’t think you can really appreciate the benefits, and thus it’s unfair for anyone to say its inhumane.

I know of someone who recently lost his dog (who doesn’t use a e-collar): because the dog went to chase a rabbit, his ‘methods’ of training couldn’t recall the dog, the dog fell into a ditch and broke his neck and died.

Would you rather choose that? or choose a method that can minimise the chances of your dog being hurt?

By: Simon

Simon — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:52:17 +0000

At last a magazine editor who is brave enough to debate electric collars openly and intelligently rather than take the populist politically correct line of screaming for their banning. As you can probably guess from my opening sentence I am very firmly in favour of electric collars for dogs. Mine has saved my German Shepherds life and other dogs lives on more than one occasion. Without it my dog would have a miserable life of being restricted to the garden or only having walks on leads. I re-homed one of my Shepherds (Strider) when he was 6 months old approx 7 years ago. I hate to associate dogs with human characteristics but to all intents and purposes he is a superb loyal and loving dog and well trained (he is in fact SCH I qualified trained by myself). He does however have two major problems:- He hates other dogs, especially small ones and when he is high in drive (and chasing another dog or deer) he is impossible to recall.
When strider was approx 12 months old I took him for his daily walk and training session in the local forest. After 15 minutes of training on a long line in a clearing we went for a walk in the forest off the lead. All went well for approx. half an hour until we met three deer who were approx 200 yds further along the track. I called Strider back to me and he immediately obeyed. The three deer, after staring at us for a couple of seconds, then skipped off into the undergrowth. We continued with our walk along the forest track but as we reached the spot that the deer had crossed Strider suddenly picked up the scent and shot off through the undergrowth after the deer. I called and called him but he failed to return and very quickly I’d lost all track of him as he’d followed the deer deep into the forest. I wandered round the forest for an hour calling him but couldn’t find him. I was of course at my wits end and decided to go home and telephone my wife and tell her to meet me at the forest on her way home from work so we could look for Strider together. I was just starting on the walk back to the car when there was a rustle in the undergrowth to my left and, to my relief, out popped Strider. From that day I vowed I would ensure that any dog I owned would have an instant recall whatever the circumstances.
I have trained dogs for Schutzhund so whilst I don’t consider myself an expert I think I know more than most about training dogs. Before the aforementioned incident Strider had had six months of recall training by traditional methods yet they were found to be inadequate. I therefore resorted to using an electric collar. I can honestly say it was the best thing I ever did. I very rarely have to use it.
Whenever walking with Strider through the forest and we see horses being ridden towards us or other dogs being walked with their owners I always recall Strider and either sit him by my side or put him on a lead. Oh how I wish other dog owners would do the same. I am constantly met with other owners who cannot get their dog back on a lead or just don’t bother and let their dog run up to Strider barking. Under these circumstances I usually get told by the owner “Oh don’t worry he/she wont hurt you.” I have to bite my tongue very hard whilst thinking “No you idiot but my dog will probably kill yours if it gets any closer and I will get the blame even though its your dog that’s off the lead and out of control.” I am also constantly thanked and complimented by horse riders who appreciate the dog being under control.
There are countless other occasions when the electric collar has been invaluable when Strider has chased other dogs. I was hoping to go to Wales this year on holiday. We don’t holiday abroad as we consider the dogs to be our responsibility and wont kennel them and its too much hassle taking them abroad. Alas Wales is out as I wont be able to give Strider any freedom and will have to keep him on a lead which isn’t fair on him.
Both my German Shepherds in fact wear electric collars. They don’t cower when they see the box coming out. Just the opposite in fact they go mad with excitement because they associate it with going for a walk or doing some motivational training. They react just the same as they do when their training toy comes out.
This is part of my own experience with electric collars however I would also like to make some general comments on the subject.
I have always known and referred to them as electric collars when and why did they suddenly become electric SHOCK collars or just SHOCK collars. It appears to me that the word SHOCK has been introduced over the last few years by the anti lobby because of the images the word conjures up with the ignorant masses who have never seen an electric collar and don’t really know what they do. It reminds me of many many years ago when the choke chain suddenly became the check chain because of some nasty incidents where dogs were choked to death and the nasty connotations that the word “choke” had.
I constantly hear or read that electric collars CAN do this or CAN do that to a dog in the wrong hands yet I have never heard anybody tell me when these things have actually happened. A walking stick in the wrong hands can cause severe injuries to a dog so should we ban the use and sale of walking sticks to dog owners? Of course not so why should it be an argument for banning electric collars.
I often meet people with dogs with severe behaviour problems who have been to several of the so called motivational/clicker trainers who have been unable to help. The owners have often after a few months been told to have the dog put down (usually after having been relieved of several hundred pounds by the trainer). The internet is full of sites from these trainers who tell us of their successes but we never hear of their failures. I’m not saying that an electric collar is the answer in every case but if it was a case of having your dog put down or giving an electric collar a try to save your dog do you not owe it to you dog? Actually it might be the case that if the electric collar had been introduced earlier into the dogs training then more dogs could be saved. The measure of a trainers real success is not how many dogs he/she has had success with but the ratio of the successes against the failures.
I have heard a story many times, so I have no reason to disbelieve it, about a German Shepherd many years ago that was given by a family to the German Railway Police. The dog had bitten the kids a couple of times and was considered to be very vicious and untrainable. No one could get near the dog and he was therefore snared and put in a kennel with a run. Only the most experienced trainers were allowed near the dog. Each morning one of the trainers would snare the dog against the bars whilst two other trainers went into the run and then beat the dog with rubber hoses. Nothing at all was said to the dog and after the beating the dog was then fed. The idea was to beat the dog into submission and break him. After two weeks the trainers were able to enter the run and feed the dog without him being snared. They then began to build the dogs confidence back up and the training of the dog began. Apparently the dog became something of a legend on the German railways with many arrests. Although it would never be a family pet the dogs life had been saved and he led a good productive life. Quite a horrific story but the question is would you do the same for your dog. Although not an electric collar story again the question is as unpalatable as you find an electric collar if the chips are down would you use one to save your dogs life? I know I would.
Why is it that electric collars for dogs are so offensive yet electric fences for cattle, sheep and horses attract little fuss. The charge given by an electric fence is far worse than that given by an electric collar. After all there is a simple alternative to an electric fence… build a normal fence or plant a hedge. Watch out the horsy set if legislation goes through to ban electric collars it will be electric fences next.
There are apparently over 300,000 (ECMA survey) people who have had success stories with electric collars where owners state that their dogs lives have been saved by the collars. That’s over 300,000 dogs saved. How many dogs have been destroyed because owners were not willing to use them. Is it not time that we had some proper research on the matter? Similar to the research I’ve heard of re check chains and pinch/pinz collars. This involved two samples of 100 dogs…the first sample only ever wore pinch collars whilst the second sample only ever wore check chains or normal flat collars. At the ends of their natural lives post mortems were conducted on the dogs. The second sample of dogs that wore the check chains or flat collars all had evidence of neck trauma injuries or brain damage (presumably caused by the check chains or flat collars restricting the oxygen getting to the brain). In the first sample of dogs that only ever wore the pinch collars only one of the 100 dogs was found to have a neck injury. That’s why none of my dogs will ever wear a check chain and yes they do wear pinch collars. Gosh I am evil aren’t I but then I have based my decision on empirical evidence not niceties. If anyone produces evidence to the contrary then I would certainly have to reconsider my position on either electric or pinch collars.
I am quite sick of seeing dog training programmes on the TV where the trainers deal with a dog that is nothing more than mildly naughty. I have yet to see one who has attempted to train a dog that has severe behavioural problems. Only the American one has come near it and he has used electric and pinch collars on his programmes. This gives a false view to the public who know no better who think “Oh isn’t he/she wonderful.” when in reality they’ve done nothing more than anybody with a reasonable amount of dog experience could do.
Another reason I often hear for banning electric collars is that the police/guide dogs for the blind association etc etc don’t use them any more. The police stopped using them after a knee jerk reaction when a police puppy was killed in Essex by being hung. This was undoubtedly an extreme case of cruelty but had nothing to do with electric collars. However the police, wanting to look whiter than white with the public, decided to discontinue the use of both electric and pinch collars. This decision as usual was taken by a collection of senior officers with no knowledge of dog training. If you ask many of the actual trainers of police dogs they regret their discontinuance. A police dog trainer a couple of years ago told me that he often went out to people who wanted to give their dog to the police because they couldn’t cope with it. After seeing the dogs he often initially thought what a great police dog they would make, then he thought the dog would have to be trained without a pinch or electric collar and he then had to reject the dog as he knew it wouldn’t be possible to train the dog without these methods. Presumably many of these dogs were destroyed. I do know that some police dog handlers who in private actually use electric collars and pinch collars to train their dogs with the risk of being thrown off the section if found out. Frankly the comparison with the police and other service dogs isn’t fair anyway. How many dogs do the police reject each year? They actually have the pick of dogs to train so the use of electric collars etc is often not necessary. Likewise for other organisations who pick the most trainable dogs and reject the rest. If it does become necessary then the dog is rejected and thrown off the course and in the police case possibly destroyed. Joe public having problems with his 12 year old German shepherd who his kids have come to love and adore doesn’t have this choice. He has a dog that has a problem that needs putting right.
Modern collars are so much better than they used to be. I use a dogtra which is super sensitive and the power can be altered from the hand set in an instant. If the dog therefore doesn’t react you can increase the level slightly until he does. I have seen articles berating the idea that there is a button on the transmitter that will shock the dog for as long as 12 seconds. Frankly that isn’t the reason the button is there. The idea of this 12 second button (called constant) is to press it when the power is on zero and keep it pressed whilst gradually increasing the power until you find the level that your dog reacts at. And by reacts I don’t mean he jumps out of his skin and yelps. All that is needed is the dog to look round and react no differently than if checked by a normal collar The idea isn’t to blast the dog until he jumps and yelps which it appears that many of the public out there think. The older collars didn’t have this facility and you could only adjust the power by fiddling with the collar itself. The other button is a “nick” button which only gives an electric impulse for a fraction of a second. The nick button if used at the correct setting is enough to bring the dog back under control in most circumstances. Occasionally I have had to use the constant button but only again for a fraction of a second when Strider is particularly high in drive. This was particularly useful a couple of years ago when next doors daschund thought he could take strider on but mistimed his run back through the garden fence and was caught by Strider. If I hadn’t used the constant button then the daschund would have been no more. See I told you that the electric collar had not only saved Striders life but other dogs lives.
Motivational training must be the greatest part of any dogs training but you are sadly deluded if you think a dog high in drive and trying to get at next doors bitch who is in season is going to come back for the promise of a dog biscuit or a play with a ball.
I have a lot more to say on electric collars but time is short and I would just like to issue this final challenge. IF ANY OF THE SO CALLED MOTIVATIONAL TRAINERS OUT THERE WHO ARE AGAINST ELECTRIC COLLARS WOULD LIKE TO COME AND MEET STRIDER AND I AND TRAIN STRIDER SO THAT HE HAS A ROCK SOLID RECALL NO MATTER WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES AND CURE HIS PROBLEMS WITH OTHER DOGS THEN PLEASE DO. I’M MORE THAN WILLING TO BE PROVED WRONG.