Are Dog Breeders Evil Villains?
Well, are they?
Over the past few months (OK, since the airing of Pedigree Dogs Exposed) debate has raged about the role dog breeders have played in creating a mess of some much loved, but sadly debilitated dog breeds.
There have been accusations of broad brush labelling of all breeders and many have felt personally slighted by the vitriol born of shock expressed by many viewers of Jemima Harrison’s documentary.
So, we must ask: are dog breeders all evil villains?
At the risk of over simplifying, no. No, all breeders are not evil villains.
But what we do have a duty to do is to ensure the public is aware of this. To ensure the dog buying public understands what is and what isn’t a responsible supplier of dogs – be it a breeder or a rescue.
“A rescue? Surely they’re ALL responsible?” I hear you ponder.
Well no. Let’s not kid ourselves on that front either. As much as it is a total fallacy to suggest that all breeders are bad, all breeders are good, all dogs are nice and friendly etc it is equally naive (and plain wrong) to assume that all rescues are, by definition, responsible suppliers of dogs. There are many people who work in the rescue / animal welfare sector who know only too well how difficult it is trying to educate people about the many benefits of adopting a shelter dog when there are some ‘rescues’ which are actually nothing more than glorified dog dealerships.
So we have to try and come up with some clear guidance on what constitutes a ‘good’ or ‘responsible’ supplier of dogs. And boy, it is NOT easy. Let’s prove it.
‘Puppy farmer’ – What IS a puppy farmer? There is no clear description, no definition, no out and out consensus agreement.
Is it purely someone who deals in volume of puppies? Is it someone who earns their living from the production and supply of dogs? Is puppy farming genrically ‘bad’? Should all ‘puppy farmers’ be tarred with the same brush in the manner that many good breeders have complained about being unfairly associated with bad breeders?
Let’s look at it from a purely volume based argument: Breeder A produces 100 puppies per year, invests in first class health care, screening and selects only the finest stock. He charges a premium for his puppies because he feels he is producing a superior ‘product’ to the ‘market average’. His ambition is to improve his breed, he happens to deal in volumes larger than the ‘average’ breeder. He earns his living from his trade in puppies.
Is he a puppy farmer? Probably. Hard to think of another way to describe him
Breeder B: produces two litters per year from their pet bitch. They use a stud dog that belongs to ‘a bloke up the road’, they don’t health test and only breed ‘for a hobby’. The breeder openly has no idea or intent for improving the breed and sells the puppies at a price far below the ‘market average’ for that particular breed.
Not a puppy farmer by any stretch, but which is the ‘worse’ or ‘irresponsible’ breeder?
It could be argued that breeder B is easily the worse breeder as they are simply contributing to the volume of dogs produced without any regard for the general improvement of the breed.
But breeder A: is (probably) a puppy farmer.
So what we must try and do is try and cut through some of these generic terms that are bandied about when we are, effectively, talking about just TWO types of breeder: good ones – and – bad ones. It really is that simple.
So, dear readers, I’d like to open the floor to you – in 50 words or less, what is the definition of a ‘good’ breeder? And, by definition, does anyone who falls outside of this description constitute a ‘bad’ or irresponsible breeder?
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I much prefer the term pet profiteer , it indicates that those breeding will profit and they all do. Quality is what counts NOT quantity, one poor dog entering the gene pool causes as much destruction as ten depending upon how many times they are used.
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For me it comes down to how the dogs are kept and what life they have apart from being used to produce litter after litter.
If the dogs are kept in a loving home get all the veterinary care they need , have a good life in general and its proven they do not suffer from any serious health complaints , thats ok with me .
If breeder A keeps his dogs in kennels for the sole purpose of breeding and they are caged 24 -7 then in my eyes yes he is a pup farmer making money immorally no matter how he dresses it up to look good .
His dogs will be in better condition than the real nasty puppy farm dogs who suffer daily from hunger , thirst, mange , hernias, blindness, pyometra, deformities, tumors and chronic flea and worm infestations but all dogs deserve a loving home not caged up and used for profit.
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I think that’s spot on! Pups reared in kennels suffer from lack of socialisation and habituation which impacts on the rest of their lives. You can NEVER completely reverse a lack of socialisation and habituation if an pup is not subjected to people and possible hazardous objects (i.e. vacuum cleaners, washing machines, traffic etc.) during their critical hazard avoidance period (between 35 – 72 days depending on breed, it will experience some level of stress in their presence for the rest of their lives. This is not my opinion it is fact.
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A bad breeder is one that breeds from dogs with KNOWN health problems for money or show success.
Any animal from a line of genetic problems should be sterilised in order that the genetic line is broken.
wouldn’t that be sad if pups are worth £800+
Branwen
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see the kc are now going to use local accredited bull shi**ers from breed clubs that support the scheme to promote their own breeders from within the clubs… Isnt it about time breed clubs were given LESS involvement with K9 management, after all its many of them that have caused dogs so much suffering.I pity anyone being told to only buy from breed club members…….The web offers much more realism and is truthful.
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Some excellent suggestions here. Welfare, welfare, welfare.
I’m going to have a go at it myself shortly but I’m totally going to steal the best elements of everyone else’s!!
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A good breeder is one who is concerned with the welfare of all dogs. They breed and raise pups in high welfare conditions, carrying out all appropriate health and temperament tests. Their dogs are pets first, breeders second, and live inside the home. They are concerned about their pups futures so vet all new owners. They are concerned abuot overpopulation, so they do not breed more litters than they homes waiting for.
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If people would think before they acquire a dog, and ask the right questions, and use their eyes and ears – and above all, if they could bring themselves to walk away if they aren’t happy with the conditions the dogs are kept in, then puppy farmers, bad breeders, call them what you like, would be put out of business.
But if the good breeders are put off from breeding by the weight of public opinion directed, however wrongly, against them, then you can be sure the slack will be taken up by their puppy farmer counterparts, with dire consequences all round.
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KAza and Branwen instead of constantly bashing all Breeders and the KC why don’t you offer something constructive.
Just to remind you, the question was “What do you consider a good breeder to be?”
KAza also stated
“it indicates that those breeding will profit and they all do”
and what evidence do you base that statement on? I’m sure that my bank manager would not agree with you.
Have you any personal knowledge on dog breeding, dog showing or the KC I think not from the ridiculous statements you keep making. I think that the only knowledge you have is that gained from a certain television programme.
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For KAza
The Price of a Puppy – A Breeders Tale
I love my little puppy, he makes my house a home,
He always is my best friend, I never feel alone.
He makes me smile, he makes me laugh, he fills my heart with love,
Did some breeder breed him? Was he sent from heaven above?
I’ve never been a breeder, or seen life through their eyes
I hold my little puppy, just sit and criticise.
I’ve never know their anguish, I’ve never felt their pain,
The caring of their charges, through snow or wind or rain.
I’ve never waited all night long for puppies to be born,
The stress and trepidation when they’re still not there by dawn….
I’ve never felt the heartache of a little life in my hands,
A darling little puppy who weighs just 60 grams !!
Should you do this instead of that? Or just pray to God?
Alone you fight, and hope one day he’ll grow into a dog.
Bring joy to another being and make a house a home.
You know it’s all just up to you, you fight this fight alone.
Formula, bottle, heating pads you’ve got to get this right,
Two hourly feeds for this little mite throughout the day and night.
In your heart you know it, you’ll surely lose the fight
To save this little baby, but God willing, you just might….
Day one he’s in there fighting, you say a silent prayer,
Day two and three he’s doing well, with lots of loving care
Day four and five – he’s still alive your hopes soar to the heavens!
Day six he slips away again, dies in your hands day seven.
You take this little angel and bury him alone,
With aching heart and burning tears, (and an exhausted groan),
You ask yourself, Why do this? Why suffer all the pain?
But see the joy that puppies bring – it really self explains!
So, when you think of breeders and label them with “greed”
Think what they sometimes endure to fill anothers need
And when you buy a puppy, with pounds and pence you part.
You only pay with money……..
We pay with our hearts.
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What is a Breeder
A Breeder (with a capital B) is one who thirsts for knowledge and never really knows it all, one who wrestles with decisions of conscience, convenience, and commitment. One that shares this knowledge and guides those interested.
A Breeder is one who sacrifices personal interests, finances, time, friendships, fancy furniture, and deep pile carpeting! She gives up the dreams of a long luxurious cruise in favor of turning that all important show into this year’s “vacation”.
The Breeder goes without sleep in hours spent planning a breeding or watching anxiously over the birth process, and afterwards, over every little wiggle or cry.
The Breeder skips dinner parties because that litter is due or the babies have to be fed at eight. She disregards birth fluids and puts mouth to mouth, to save a gasping newborn, literally blowing life into a tiny helpless creature that may be the culmination of a lifetime of dreams.
A Breeder’s lap is a marvelous place where dogs of proud and noble heritage often snooze.
A Breeder’s hands are strong and firm and often soiled, but ever so gentle and sensitive to the thrusts of a puppy’s wet nose.
A Breeder’s back and knees are usually arthritic from bending and sitting in the whelping box, but are strong enough to guide that new little pup to maturity.
A Breeder’s shoulders are often heaped with responsibility, but they’re wide enough to support the weight of a thousand defeats and frustrations.
A Breeder’s arms are always able to wield a mop, support an armful of puppies, or lend a helping hand to a newcomer.
A Breeder’s ears are wondrous things, sometimes red (from being talked about), or strangely shaped (from being pressed against a phone receiver). Often deaf to criticism, yet always fine tuned to the whimper of an anxious puppy.
A Breeder’s brain is foggy on faces, but can recall pedigrees faster than an IBM computer.
The Breeder’s heart is often broken, but it beats strongly with hope everlasting…….and it’s always in the right place! Oh, yes, there are breeders, and then, there are Breeders!!!
Author Unknown
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and now my personal view of what is a good breeder, apologies in advance but I don’t think it will be under 50 words.
A good breeder is one who
Knows their breed inside out.
Cares about health, temperament and fitness for purpose.
Carries out all of the health tests relevant for their breed and perhaps also some that aren’t. How can you know if a problem is starting in your breed if no one ever tests for it, until perhaps it is too late.
Screens potential buyers and rejects those not suitable and advises others in the breed about your decisions.
Gives a lifetime commitment to all puppies that they breed. Including giving help and advice and taking any puppy back if necessary.
Someone who endorses the registrations of all puppies that they breed to prevent puppies being bred indiscriminately or puppies being sold on and exploited.
Someone who ideally rears the puppies in the home and rears and socialises them properly.
Someone who gets them vet checked before they leave for their new homes.
Someone who ideally has an extended family for the buyer to see.
That will do for starters and there are tens of thousands of breeders, mainly who show, who do all of the above. It is the puppy farmers and pet breeders who don’t bother and everytime someone buys a puppy from such an outlet even if it is because they feel sorry for it they are just making space for the next poor little soul.
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Now what I do
I have had seven litters in 20 years of owning my breed, the oldest of which are 12 next year. I can tell you the names of each and every one of those puppies and exactly where they are living and what if any illnesses they have had.
I have 4 generations living in my house, the oldest of which is 15, the youngest 2.
I generally breed when I want something for myself, temperament is the most important thing that I look for. Although I show, the majority of my puppy buyers are pet owners.Puppies that I have bred have been shown with very good results, are Pat Dogs, KC Gold Good Citizen holders, Obedience and Agility trained.
I spend years looking for stud dogs and carefully planning matings. My breed recommends hip scoring although there isn’t a particular problem with HD in the breed. Most but not all breeders do hip score. My breed is the only collie breed that doesn’t suffer from hereditary eye problems but lots of breeders myself included carry out eye testing. I always take my bitches to be checked by my vet prior to mating.
They are scanned once or twice during pregnancy to check whether they are pregnant, the number of puppies expected and to see whether everything is OK.
My bitches are wormed as recommended from the 40th day of pregnancy to two days post whelping and the puppies are wormed normally three times before they leave.
For a week prior to whelping my bitches won’t be left alone in case they whelp early.
Once they have whelped they are not left at all for at least the first two weeks of the puppies lives which involves someone generally sleeping on the floor next to the whelping box. They are checked over by my vet at 3 days old if not before.
After that so much time is spent feeding, cleaning, playing, cuddling, grooming, training and just watching the little darlings.
Of course there are prospective families to visit and vet,some who may visit several times which is good as I like to get to know them. They get to meet the extended family and have a full grooming demonstration, even if they have had the breed before. Every little thing that I can think of is discussed during these visits. I never take or give an opinion on people, I like them to go away and think about everything they have seen and heard and I also like to think about them. I ask them to give me a ring in a few days and hopefully we will have come to the same conclusion. Not always easy to tell someone they can’t have one of your puppies. I never take deposits and that means I can change my mind right up until the last minute.
The week before they leave they are taken to my vet and given a final health check.
Then there are little bags to pack, each puppy goes with a Contract, Puppy Guide, Extensive Puppy Pack, Wormer, Food, Bedding and several toys. All of my puppies are microchipped with my details as an emergency contact.
All of my puppies have their Registration Documents endorsed to prevent breeding and export. I am generally happy to lift the breeding endorsement once the puppy has reached the age of two, has had all of the recommended health tests with good results, is a good example of the breed with no major faults, has a good temperament and I feel that the owners are capable enough of not endangering the lives of the bitch or puppies.
All puppies have insurance arranged for them before they go.
My puppies are given a bath and groom on the morning that they leave. I never have more than two puppies go each day, one morning, one after lunch. This is so I can spend time with the new owners and go through all of the paperwork and also so that the puppies mother loses them gradually. I would never let a puppy go late in the day and if someone has a long distance to travel they must collect the puppy in the morning so that the puppies have time to settle before bedtime.
I aim to let puppies go at 8 weeks, although I have let them go a couple of days early occasionally. I will keep any puppy that I am not completely happy with for as long as it takes, some may need a week or two more.
All puppies are given something for travel sickness before leaving and I insist that the puppy is held in the car during the journey. I ask all buyers to phone me when they get home to let me know how the puppy has travelled and how it is getting on and again the next morning.
My puppy buyers have to sign a contract agreeing that if their puppy ever needs rehoming that the dog will be returned to me. So far this has happenned twice, once due to a marriage breakup and once due to a child allergy (although that one was a pack of lies) and I had returned just before Christmas an 11 months old completely unsocialised puppy that had received no training whatsoever. I kept her for 7 weeks and put an awful lot of work into her before finding her a very special home locally.
I have lost 4 puppies in total at birth, each time I have worked for up to 40 minutes trying to revive them and have been devastated when I have failed. Anyone else who is so critical on here tried sucking bodily fluids out of a puppies mouth in a desperate attempt to save a precious little life, anyone else tried giving mouth to mouth on puppies? Each of the 4 has been buried in the garden. I have also successfully managed to revive puppies and how special are they? One puppy who wouldn’t / couldn/t suckle had to be tube fed until he was three weeks old, every two hours initially around the clock.
Evil Breeder?
I don’t think so and I am not alone
There is so much evidence out there of puppy farmers who are churning out puppies with neither care or thought. The bad show breeders are in the minority.
There are also the pet breeders and I see a lot of those in my job as a Dog Warden who really haven’t got a clue, who think it ok to mate their too young bitch to the dog up the road, who know nothing about health testing, who allow their bitches to whelp on their own and just leave them to get on with afterwards, who don’t have a clue about rearing or caring for puppies and will quite often let them go to their new homes from as little as 4 weeks, to anyone who can provide the cash.
These are the breeders who need to be stopped.
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Moppet or could that be muppet, I run the WORLDS largest breed specific health site and yes I am also qualified to criticise the show world and those that fail to understand the simplistics of animal welfare or indeed more to the point animal wellbeing.
Why oh why do so many breeders fail to admit they make a profit, they use the money from puppy sales to attend shows, that is an income ..They buy items for showing, they buy grooming equipment …. What is wrong in making a profit unless of course you equate that with puppy farming, if you do then hey, please reassess why you indeed breed the dogs you say are your companions.Would you have your kids mated because they look on the outside a good specimen,not bloomin likely.
Now the ONLY ridiculous comment being made within this feedback is indeed the one from the muppet, who frankly wont admit to what they gain from breeding. You are like so many others delusional, now if knocking the KC is incorrect , then you sadly care little about dogs.The KC isnt about animal welfare its about making money, yes some of that money does promote health testing, but an awful lot goes on paying the wages of the scatterbrains that frequent its buildings.
Puppy farming exists because show breeders are greedy and the stock within many puppy farms comes from show kennels and always has. So, logically inherited diseases can be said to be caused by show kennels.
By the way.. I am sure your bank manager would agree with me !
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Too many dogs are being bred, be it by good, bad or indifferent breeders. The rescues are full and tens of thousands of dogs are being put to sleep each year because there just isn’t room for them and not enough homes. No, these are not all cross breeds or mongrels. You can pick up a pedigree dog from any multibreed dog rescue (Dogs Trust, Woodgreen, RSPCA, Battersea Dogs Home etc) or from the numerous breed specific rescues all over the country, but breeders keep churning out puppies, many of them selling to anyone who comes along, regardless of whether the animal is suitable or not for the person/family who want to buy it.
Yes there are good, bad and “dubious” rescues. Good rescue centres will take on a dog that doesn’t have a home, not even a temporary foster home until the owner finds a solution. A good rescue centre will also assess a dog in rescue and rehome it to a person/family who can accommodate it’s temperament and needs. It will put to sleep any animal that is a risk to people because of an agressive character, and not to rehome any dog to the first person who wishes to adopt it.
A bad rescue is one that takes in and keeps the dogs in unsuitable conditions and rehomes them in the same state as when they entered rescue, in good or bad health/condition, then refuses to take the animal back if the new owner is not satisfied.
A dubious rescue is one that picks and chooses which dogs it “rescues,” even “rescuing” ones that breeders have wanted back because they want to keep track of their own breeding, but the “rescue” refuses to hand the dog over to it’s breeder, (these dogs have a home to go to) and the rescue asks more money to rehome a pedigree dog with papers, than a dog without papers. Often, dubious rescues, which are sometimes registered charities, sometimes not, do not give receipts to people who adopt their dogs and monies are not “accounted.”
In come countries there is a system whereas if there are too many of certain breeds in circulation, the breeders are allowed only a certain amount of litters, or only a certain amount of puppies in each litter, i.e. the breeder, if only 6 puppies are allowed, they have to cull (kill) any “superfluous” puppies in the litter.
Cruel? Death isn’t cruel, but puppies and adult dogs living in rescue shelters, or being shuttled from one bad home to another IS cruel.
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KAza
I would be very grateful to a link for your “WORLDS largest breed specific health site” as I am always interested in doing research on my breed. I am not currently aware of such a wonderful site.
As I requested before perhaps with your vast experience you could tell us what you consider to be a “Good Breeder”
and I really don’t think there is any need for rudeness or name calling.
With regard to Animal Welfare, I have worked in Animal Welfare for 17 years, you obviously didn’t read my post.
Again with regard to profit, If I could be bothered and could spare the time I would list all of my expenses in breeding a litter. It stands to reason that expenses and costs can be set against income. I don’t equate income to puppy farming, I equate bad breeding to puppy farming.
What do I gain from breeding, the privilege of bringing healthy, beautiful puppies into this world, of knowing exactly what I am producing and having the next generation on my sofa.
You wrote
“Puppy farming exists because show breeders are greedy and the stock within many puppy farms comes from show kennels and always has. So, logically inherited diseases can be said to be caused by show kennels.”
As I stated above, most of the breeders I know endorse their puppies registration papers, this means that any progeny can’t be registered with the KC. The vast majority of “Pedigree’s” that I see from puppy farms have no meaningful names in them whatsover, and generally no affix’s, they don’t need to buy puppies from responsible breeders they just keep replenishing from their own unhealthtested stock.
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Unfortunately moppet thats the only way they can regain some respect in themselves.
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Most people know to avoid puppy farms and “backyard” breeders. But many kind individuals fall prey to the picket-fence appeal of so-called “responsible” breeders and fail to recognize that no matter how kindly a breeder treats his or her animals, as long as dogs are dying in animal rescues and pounds because of a lack of homes, no breeding can be considered “responsible.”
All breeders fuel the companion animal overpopulation crisis, and every time someone purchases a puppy instead of adopting from an animal rescue, homeless dogs lose their chance of finding a home. Many breeders don’t require every puppy to be neutered prior to purchase, nor do they check up to ensure it’s been done, so the animals they sell can soon have litters of their own, creating even more animals to fill homes that could have gone to rescue dogs. Simply put, for every puppy who is deliberately produced by any breeder, a homeless dog’s life is put at risk. Producing animals for sale is a greedy and callous business in a world where there is a critical and chronic shortage of good homes for dogs, cats, and other animals, and the only “responsible breeders” are ones who, upon learning about their contribution to the overpopulation crisis, neuter their animals, and get out of the business altogether.
Producing more dogs—either to make money or to obtain a certain “look” or characteristic—is also harmful to the dogs who are produced by inbreeding. Dogs don’t care whether their physical appearance conforms to a judge’s standards, yet they are the ones who suffer the consequences of humans’ manipulation. Inbreeding and line-breeding causes painful and life-threatening genetic defects in “purebred” dogs, including crippling hip dysplasia, blindness, deafness, heart defects, skin problems, and epilepsy. Distorting dogs for specific extreme physical features also causes severe health problems. The short, pushed-up noses of bulldogs and pugs, for example, can make exercise and even normal breathing difficult for these animals. Dachshunds and Basset Hounds’ long spinal columns often cause back problems, including disk disease.
There is no excuse for breeding or for supporting breeders when homeless dogs lose their lives. If you love animals and are ready to care for a dog for the rest of the animal’s life, please adopt from your local rescue, where there are dogs galore—tails wagging and hearts filled with hope, looking out through the cage bars, just waiting to find someone to love. All ages, shapes, sizes and breeds, with temperament & health professionally assessed. Rescues receive new animals every day, so if you don’t find the perfect companion to match your lifestyle on your first visit, keep checking back. When you find your new best friend, you’ll be glad that you chose to save a life—and made a new best friend as well.
Of course breeders will disagree with this statement, I’ve heard all the arguments but we’re all entitled to our opinion.
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Moe wrote
“Most people know to avoid puppy farms and “backyard” breeders”
Oh if only this were true, if it is why are there still plenty of petshops and puppy supermarkets still doing a roaring trade. Have you looked in Loot or Exchange and Mart recently?
I have a petshop in my Borough that sell puppies, my first question to people is always “why on earth did you buy a puppy from there?” The answer invariably is that “We didn’t know” or that “we felt sorry for the puppy”
The truth is that so many people put as much thought into buying a puppy as they do to buying a pair of socks. Many tiny puppies end up in Battersea because they weren’t housetrained or they cried when they were left all day. What do people expect?
I make no apologies that if I was buying a puppy or an adult dog that I would not really want to go to a Dogs Home or even a Breed Rescue. I would want to know how the dog had been bred, reared and produced, that is why I would go to a Responsible Breeder and not a Puppy Farm. I would not want to rescue a dog that was likely to cost me a fortune and cause my heart to break. On the whole it is the badly bred puppies that end up in Rescue, as previously stated Responsible Breeders take care of their own. The bottom line is ALL puppies should be responsibly bred.
You also wrote
Many breeders don’t require every puppy to be neutered prior to purchase,”
This statement suggests that you are not from the UK, in my opinion and many others it is sheer cruelty to neuter such a young animal and will cause many health problems for the animals in later life.”
You then go on to state
“nor do they check up to ensure it’s been done, so the animals they sell can soon have litters of their own, creating even more animals to fill homes that could have gone to rescue dogs.”
I sell to responsible people, it is not necessary to have an animal neutered to prevent unwanted puppies.
Back in the early 90’s when the DDA was introduced, the majority of Rotweiller breeders stopped breeding, the puppy farmers and back yard breeders didn’t and it was left to the Responsible breeders to pick up the pieces. By Responsible Breeders stopping breeding they are just giving the green light to the puppy farmers who will step in.
It is interesting to see how many puppy farmers have dumped their Cavalier bitches, stud dogs and puppies since the Pedigree Dogs Exposed programme and who is picking up the pieces, the show people.
You state
“Inbreeding and line-breeding causes painful and life-threatening genetic defects in “purebred” dogs, including crippling hip dysplasia, blindness, deafness, heart defects, skin problems, and epilepsy.”
No bad breeding, rearing and husbandry causes those things. If I mate a dog with a good hip score to a dog with a good hip score then I stand the best chance of producing puppies with good hips. If I mate a bitch with hereditary eye problems or don’t bother getting bitches tested, then I can expect to get problems, not down to inbreeding or line breeding just bad breeding.
You also state about dogs in rescue
“All ages, shapes, sizes and breeds, with temperament & health professionally assessed.”
Sorry that certainly doesn’t happen in this country, for a start it is very difficult if not impossible to accurately assess a dogs temperament in a Kennel Environment and most rescues would not have the resources to offer anything other than a general health check for the animals before they leave unless there is an obvious problem.
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The major point you are missing though is that it is breeders who are producing those dogs who end up in rescue. So it is breeders who are clearly supplying irresponsibly NOT rescues. 100,000 dogs in rescues of which MANY are pedigree – so rescue is left to pick up the pieces of the damage caused by breeders. So the whole idea that the only way to responsibly get hold of a dog is via a breeder is a proven flawed concept. When you have pedigree fraud and you have MOST breeders NOT health testing (this is a fact, it is the minority who health test not the majority) then it makes no difference getting a dog from an ‘average’ rescue compared to the ‘average’ breeder.
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“I make no apologies that if I was buying a puppy or an adult dog that I would not really want to go to a Dogs Home or even a Breed Rescue.”
Knowing what your job is, that makes me very sad and upset.
I have no further comment to add to that.
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No I’m not missing the point at all, but perhaps you have missed mine. Ryan you state
“The major point you are missing though is that it is breeders who are producing those dogs who end up in rescue.”
Well of course it is, anybody who’s bitch has had a litter for any reason is a ‘Breeder’ by definition.
The difference I am trying to point out is there are breeders and there are breeders.
My breed for example will very rarely turn up in any rescue organisation, even our Breed Rescue deal with very few each year, that is despite the fact that every shaggy, hairy mongrel tends to get described as this breed.
You state
“you have MOST breeders NOT health testing (this is a fact, it is the minority who health test not the majority) then it makes no difference getting a dog from an ‘average’ rescue compared to the ‘average’ breeder.”
So lets promote buying puppies from Responsible Breeders who do all the health tests and provide a commitment for that puppy for life. The fastest way to put the bad breeders out of business would be if no one purchased their puppies. Supply and demand, easy. The bad breeders would have to raise their game or go out of busy, easy.
No one has to buy a puppy from the ‘average breeder’
Incidentally, many end up buying puppies from the pet shops and puppy farmers as they find out that the good breeder won’t sell them a puppy due to their circumstances, eg working all day, no garden, top floor flat, young children etc etc. They ignore all advice and go ahead regardless only to realise that they have made a big mistake and hand the dog over to rescue.
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Dave the Dog
Totally agree with your comment after reading this quote from Moppetswood:
‘I make no apologies that if I was buying a puppy or an adult dog that I would not really want to go to a Dogs Home or even a Breed Rescue.’
Major tumbleweed moment, time to walk away from this thread now, Moppetswood is involved in Animal Welfare?
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Dave
Sad yes, I have not bought a dog in for over 15 years, I breed my own and know exactly what I am getting, I would even be wary about buying in a puppy from another breeder without knowing their breeding inside out. My dogs are sound in both health and temperament. I see the same traits which I love in my youngest as I see in her Great Grandmother who is here and also her Great Great Grandmother and her Great Great Great Grandfather who I used to look after.
If I get a dog from a rescue I have no idea what problems may arise in the future, this would not make me love the dog any less, in fact I have had many such dogs over the years from good and bad rescues many of which have broke my heart. My decision, My Choice, My Breed, but I will do anything to help any dog, anytime, any place to the best of my ability.
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“If I get a dog from a rescue I have no idea what problems may arise in the future”
If a person gets a dog from a breeder they, equally, can have absolutely no idea of what problems may arise in the future. It would be completely irresponsible to suggest otherwise. In reality, an adult dog from a rescue is far more of a known quantity than a puppy – regardless of whether it is from a good breeder or not. As I said earlier, rescues are not the ones producing these dogs, breeders are – and they are ending up in rescue who are charged with having to pick up the pieces.
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Ryan you are going around in circles.
My first dog of my current breed came from breed rescue, he was a dog in a lifetime but he had some serious hangups and my one regret was that I didn’t have him from a puppy. I still have the scars to remind me of his quirkyness.
and yes I am involved in Animal Welfare doesn’t mean that I can’t breed dogs to the best of my ability and chose which dogs I have to share my life and home without facing criticism.
Perhaps you should read some of my previous posts, nowhere am I defending irresponsible breeders who do not health test etc etc etc.
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LAST WORD NOW ON THIS THREAD NOW!
I obtained my dog from a pedigree breed rescue because he had been sold by a breeder to people who had no idea whatsoever on looking after him.
He is at the end of his life now and has had many, many health problems although he is gentle as anything and I used to take him into schools for RDO and getting kids to understand that they have to be aware of the committment involved with having any kind of pet.
Moppetswood you seem to have adopted some kind of party line regarding your defence of breeders, people are trying to point out to you that they are referring to bad ones, not all breeders but you will just not have it.
Appalled at what you write regarding you would not ha
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REALLY IS THE LAST WORD!
Pressed the button by accident, so not finished:
Appalled at what you write regarding you would not have a dog from a breed rescue or dogs home, and this:
“If I get a dog from a rescue I have no idea what problems may arise in the future”
You really do come across as an apologist for the lackness of the Kennel Club.
Dont bother responding,because I will not reply to you!
You might also want to reconsider what your doing in Animal Welfare too, you go on about a pet shop in your borough selling dogs, why dont you do something about it, if by your borough you mean your the Animal Welfare person?
If you cannot find anything illegal going on, then however bad it is, they cannot be breaking the law, whoever supplies the dogs must be a breeder of dogs, why not sort them out, oh that’s right they are breeders, your a breeder, surely it is a conflict of interest?
Thank you and good bye!
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Ok I won’t bother responding, you are not listening anyway.
I had thought at last Ryan wanted to know what a Responsible Breeder was, some people have tried to answer, others have just made more ridiculous statements. I don’t think you really wanted to know the answer to the question.
and just because the pet shops and puppy farmers are not doing anything illegal it doesn’t make it right. It doesn’t mean that countless dogs don’t suffer and die.
I give up. I will not be making any further response to anything on this website.
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This is quite an arrogant position to take. It is a ‘ridiculous statement’ only because you say so? One man’s ‘ridiculous statement’ is another’s firm belief. I still want to know what a responsible breeder is and my specific issue is your assertion that a puppy from a breeder is somehow a better bet than a dog from a rescue. This is a myth that needs to be dispelled and should have died out with other old wives tales. There is absolutely no guarantee as to how a dog will turn out whether it comes from a breeder or a rescue but it is, frankly, very disheartening (and somewhat revealing) to read this theory still being touted. It is nothing to do with the initial question but personally I find it very difficult for anyone who works in the field of animal welfare to still be promoting this outdated theory. Rescues are full of dogs that have been created by breeders. So to hear this outdated theory that a puppy from a breeder comes with more ‘reliability’ is likely to provoke a reaction. If the theory can’t be substantiated, it needs to be challenged. It has been. That is nothing to do with the original question which is still being addressed.
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I really hope the comments from moppteswood don’t put anyone off rescue dogs. I have only had rescues for the past 40 years and I can truly say they have all been wonderful dogs, the pedigrees and the mongrels. All they need is love and commitment , please visit your local rescue before going to a breeder , thank you.
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I breed dogs and have done so for 30 years..very few dogs…. but everyone is well bred from extensively health tested parents. They are homed with great care and I will take them back, for what ever reason, at any point in their life. No dog I have bred has gone into a rescue society, I know…. I’ve checked…for the simple reason I will sue the person for breach of contract.
All my dogs are health tested annually ( at least) by consultant vets and all my adults are MRI scanned at great expense…dont tell me that all dog breeders make money from it….. I dont.
My dogs live with me in my home and no expense is spared on their health and welfare.
Other than sitting back and letting puppy farmers fulfill ALL the market for pedigree pups OR finding a breed that can be guarenteed to only produce ONE puppy for me… what would you have me do that I’m not doing already?
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I have noticed a very common trend on this site. Anyone who seems to have a contradicting statement seems to be vilified and made to look silly by those who wrote the articles or regularly contribute to discussions.
Whether a ‘breeder’, greyhound racer, vet, animal warden etc nobody deserves to be belittled regardless of whether you agree or not. Taking a rude condescending tone, revealing that someone is using different names under the same IP address and calling people names is just childish and belongs in the playground.
All these BLATENT tactics deliberately steer the conversation in a different direction because its not going in your favour.
SURELY your whole point is lost when you resort to such bullish behaviour. PERHAPS that is why there is such little response to articles in comparison to other similar websites.
Be open-minded to others views, you can’t be right all the time.
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Jennifer you don’t seem to understand what a debate is and I’m afraid the only childish attitude is the one where people feel they have to whinge and complain as and when they are out-debated on an issue. Your call for people to be ‘open minded’ is exceptionally arrogant as it suggests people are not entitled to their opinions and if they have an opinion and have formed it and expressed it in opposition to someone else, that is how debate works. It really is that simple. If it was a case of ’steering a conversation’ then, wouldn’t you think, it would be far, far easier just to prevent any opposing comments to even get posted in the first place? If someone expresses a view that draws vilification then that’s the way of the world, a grown up world.
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Ryan: you say ” MOST breeders NOT health testing (this is a fact, it is the minority who health test not the majority)”
Are you prepared to give anyone in this minority credit for this or are we all to be villified as ‘BREEDERS’?
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“you don’t seem to understand what a debate is”
Like I said the message gets lost when people adopt a patronising tone. I do know what a debate is and how they work. I just think its hypocritical to say i am arrogant and that im not entitling people to their opinions when your the first to jump down someones throat and tell them what is what. Their are so so many examples on this site. You have shown it yourself. Point proven. This is why there is a lack of feedback on this site.
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Lack of feedback? This is a blog, it’s not a forum. And I wasn’t aware you were monitoring our ‘feedback’. There are over 3,300 responses to various articles on this blog and on my forum, there are tens of thousands. So forgive me if I don’t take to worrying too much about ‘lack of feedback’. The reality is some people want to have a say and simply can’t stomach it when someone else publicly disagrees with them. They are not used to it, they don’t like and they can’t handle it. So they whinge. It’s ‘feedback’ when it is to your taste but ‘patronising’ when it happens to be opposing your own view. Arrogance, as I say.
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“Are you prepared to give anyone in this minority credit for this or are we all to be villified as ‘BREEDERS’?”
Did you even read the article?
This overtly defensive ‘woe is us’ attitude that some breeders express is worrying. Good breeders – and I know many – don’t worry at ALL about the criticism aimed at bad breeders. Good breeders welcome it. Good breeders know who the criticism is aimed at. Good breeders don’t wish to be associated with the bad breeders. The ones in the middle, the ones who aren’t – in their heart of heart’s – REALLY sure whether they are a genuinely good breeder or not, they get defensive and end up fighting tooth and nail in an effort to clear a name that was never actually tarnished. Nowhere, not once, not ever has this website or me personally EVER said ‘all breeders deserve vilification’ – why? Because I have bred, I am thus ‘a breeder’. A good breeder. Why so many breeders feel the need, instead of joining in the condemnation of the BAD breeders, would prefer to nail themselves to their figurative cross and bemoan the nasty media for ‘attacking them all’ when the reality is, they’ve done no such thing, is a mystery to me.
You see – if you’d read the original article you’d see the following:
“No, all breeders are not evil villains.”
If I WAS ‘villifying ALL breeders’ it would not read that way. It would read, quite simply, as
“Yes, all breeders are evil villains.”
But it doesn’t. And so instead of playing the victim, those breeders who feel they are up to scratch, those breeders who aren’t – secretly – worried that it might just be them who IS being criticised, who aren’t TOTALLY sure that their standards are as high as they could be, who aren’t POSITIVE that their motivation for breeding is 100% credible, those breeders simply don’t worry about the criticism aimed at the BAD breeders and they certainly don’t get hot under the collar when moves are being made to highlight bad breeders, bad breeding practices and to put pressure on the public to understand that there are – quite simply – only two kinds of breeders: Good ones, and bad ones.
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“Good breeders – and I know many – don’t worry at ALL about the criticism aimed at bad breeders”
and by implication all those who express their standpoint can be filed in YOUR bad breeders file.
What’s the view like from the top of your own, self-moderated soap box?
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I implied nothing. Read again:
“Good breeders – and I know many – don’t worry at ALL about the criticism aimed at bad breeders”
Good breeders do not and should not worry in the slightest about the criticisms aimed at BAD BREEDERS. Seems pretty simple. Pretty straight forward.
OH – and everyone is ’self moderated’. People can say whatever they like. I find it funny that someone/anyone is so defensive over criticisms aimed at bad breeders. It’s a highly odd position to take.
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Posted by Tooolz 4th November, 2008 at 3:25 pm
“Good breeders – and I know many – don’t worry at ALL about the criticism aimed at bad breeders”
and by implication all those who express their standpoint can be filed in YOUR bad breeders file.
What’s the view like from the top of your own, self-moderated soap box?
Hey Tooolz, if the view was really from the top of a ’self-moderated soap box’, we would not be able to read your comment would we, think about it!
Regards
Cutleeeery
PS Your not really one of the sharpest tooolz in the tooolzbox are you! lol
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“I implied nothing”
” I find it funny that someone/anyone is so defensive over criticisms aimed at bad breeders. It’s a highly odd position to take.”
OH REALLY?
I responded, in good faith, to your invitation to put my view as to what constitutes a good dog breeder(or as you put it “are dog breeders evil villains?”)
THEN you suggest that because I posted my personal criteria, I protest too much.
I enjoy a good debate as much as the next person – BUT it would appear a good debate is not what you enjoy.
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No I didn’t. You implied that yourself. It’s really, really simple – why would a GOOD breeder be so worried about criticisms aimed exclusively at bad breeders? The good breeders I know are delighted that the public is being forced into hearing the public debate about good and bad dog breeding practices. Some breeders are way too defensive – that is a worrying trait when it is not (ever) GOOD breeders who are being criticised.
As for a good debate, believe me – it’s open season here, I can (and do) debate hard and long but some people prefer to avoid any debating and simply engage in exchanges that cloud the issue. I wasn’t the one who ‘implied’ anything, you implied it yourself and then made a wise-crack about my soap box. So if it’s a strong opinion from my side of the fence it’s a ’soap box’ but when it comes from yours its ‘debate’. Really? This is the kind of double standards that reveals those who can and those who can’t discuss things robustly.
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Boy oh boy muppet likes to be alpha dog doesnt he…
Im not interested in your arrogant drivel muppet, now google canine health and I am sure even a muppet like you will find who we are….
please dont ever be put off rescue because some loud mouth wants to stamp his rotten feet, animals need us all yes even the gobby ones too !
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This is quite an arrogant position to take. It is a ‘ridiculous statement’ only because you say so? One man’s ‘ridiculous statement’ is another’s firm belief. I still want to know what a responsible breeder is and my specific issue is your assertion that a puppy from a breeder is somehow a better bet than a dog from a rescue. This is a myth that needs to be dispelled and should have died out with other old wives tales. There is absolutely no guarantee as to how a dog will turn out whether it comes from a breeder or a rescue but it is, frankly, very disheartening (and somewhat revealing) to read this theory still being touted. It is nothing to do with the initial question but personally I find it very difficult for anyone who works in the field of animal welfare to still be promoting this outdated theory. Rescues are full of dogs that have been created by breeders. So to hear this outdated theory that a puppy from a breeder comes with more ‘reliability’ is likely to provoke a reaction. If the theory can’t be substantiated, it needs to be challenged. It has been. That is nothing to do with the original question which is still being addressed.
The above post shows how very little the poster understands about breeding, environmental and genetic influences, although, I have to admit at NOT being too surprised at this low level of educationa nd understanding…..Ryan is right in what he says here, outdated, head in the sand dodgy old breeder is what image I have of this poster.
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I breed my dogs but I am more interested in seeing the puppies come into the world than the money ofcourse i don't give them away because they could end up any where and I don't want anyone thinking I am a "Back yard breeder" because I am not, a B.Y.B. is someone who breeds his/her dogs at their homes for profit alone and they never let them have breaks either , my bitches have long breaks between litters and well deserved ones they are too, although my bitches breed somtimes, they are still pets NOT money machines!!!
I hope this sinks into the thick skulls of puppy farmers and back yard breeders!
Just one more thing………
Brothers and sisters should NOT breed!!!!!
DONT BREED FOR GREED!!!
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Breeders should really be allowed to breed an “x” amount of dogs per year. Dogs in pounds are kept for 7 days max and they range on average 2-5 years old. These dogs I kid you not all look mannered, cute, and potentialed to be part of someone’s family nucleus for years to come. In a matter of 1 month I bet we can alleviate the over saturation of dogs being humanly put down at animal shelters by regulating these PIECE of sh*t breeders. I don’t care how solid they are at what they do, go get a real hobby and or a real job. There is nothing natural about you breeding dogs how would you like someone breeding you or your kids? Yes I’m angered and annoyed with breeders. I see the reality in all this and it just doesn’t make sense in regards to what breeders are doing. Very selfish I’d have to say. These dogs are diseased on an aggregate scale. All these tiny tee cup dogs statistically have heart problems and come down with some type of neurological problem almost always. If you are really a dog lover, lets be frank…..You will fall in love with any dog you bring into your family, bottom line is every dog will find their way into you heart. ughghghg I don’t know I’m just not impressed with what I saw at the animal shelter. They have no blankets, they take daily walks with in a very small range it’s depressing seeing them go through what they go through. Humans seriously ruin everything starting w/ the eco system down righteous to dogs where we have no BUSINESS doing what we are doing especially breeding. Any who that’s my 2 cents.
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